Shame On You!!
Anonymous - November 15, 2009 4:09 PM
How can you be black and be such a supporting member of an organization that was officially racist until 1978? And still teaches to this day that the Curse of Cain is manifest in black people?
Shame on you.
Shame on you.
We know that this isn't typically done, and if this post makes any of our readers feel uncomfortable we apologize.
Many of our Brothas and Sistas get this question regularly, this is our post for today, we wanted you - our readers, Sistas and Brothas to share with us your response. It was originally posted in the comments section of "It's Not My Turn To Pray". We responded, but felt that we needed to address this issue in a direct, yet sensitive manner.
We'd like to hear your response, to our "Anonymous Brotha/Sista". As we will prayerfully try to articulate our individual feelings and why we feel the way we do about our membership in the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. We will post our individual feelings/testimonies tomorrow. Thank You
Be Blessed!
Sistas Beehive & Laurel
28 comments:
First, I'm not a "sista", so I can't comment on your question. I can, however, say that I cried tears of joy when the announcement was made that all worthy male members could hold the priesthood. I'm not a historian, and I don't know why our history is what it is, but I've resolved it in my mind this way: The church is guided by inspiration to a living prophet, just as individuals receive revelation for themselves. Sometimes we don't ask the RIGHT QUESTIONS. If you don't ask the questions, it's difficult to get the answers. I have personal experience with that aspect of prayer. I also want to acknowledge the profound respect I have for African American members of the church. It's been my experience that you have testimonies of steel.
LaurieBee
Joseph Smith ordained blacks and gave them the priesthood. Watch Nobody Knows. That stupid policy that was finally stopped in 1978 was all a big mistake started by Brigham because he caved to political pressure. But the gospel's true. The Holy Ghost will tell you it is.
There is a DVD called "Blacks in the Scriptures" that was made by two LDS African Americans. It is a remarkable DVD that truely sheds light on this topic. The two Brothers in the DVD use only scriptures and church history to back their research. The first disc goes into the geneology and tribes of prominant figures in the bible, which if traced back correctly, are African at some point. One of the best quotes from that first dvd was given after Joseph and Mary's geneology was linked, b/c they were distant cousins, "Isn't it fitting that the Savior who was sent to save all mankind, had in him imprinted the DNA of all mankind?"
The second DVD is about the "curse" and black in church history. As far as the curse goes, if you read the footnotes and compare the scriptures that mention the words dark or black, it is proven in the DVD that it was meant to describe the SOULS of those who had the curse, not the skin color. One of the prophets, and I can't rememebr which one, said that when it came to the subject of Blacks having the priesthood, "we had a lack of knowledge, and now the the flood gates have been opened." The two Brothers also talk about 2 specific Black men in church history. I'm sorry I can not remember their names b/c it has been a while since I saw the video. One of the men said that he was receiving his own revelations to take multiple wives into the temple, and it is assumed by these two Brothers that this was a pivital point in the withholding of the priesthood to blacks. However, the other black man they talk about was gievn the priesthood and had kept it until the early to mid 1900's. Again, I'm sorry about the lack of names. The dvd is AMAZING and I highly recommend it to every member or non-member of the church who has questions on this topic. If you are interested, they have a website where you can watch clips of the dvd and also purchase a copy of it. www.blacksinthescriptures.com
ok...so I went to the website and I found what prophet made the quote. It was President McKay and he said, "it is not a doctrine. There was never a curse against the black, it was a practice." Elder Bruce R. McKonkie (spelling?) also said, "forget what I said, what Brigham Young said, what George Q. Cannon said, we spoke with a limited understanding." After that the scriptures were updated with all of the marvelous footnotes to help readers understand what they had not. :)
I believe it was Gladys Knight who said the Old Testament never allowed everyone to hold the priesthood either--it's always been limited to certain people at various times. When I looked it up, I saw she was right--you couldn't hold it then if you had a disability or even a blemish. It was limited to a very small number of people based on a number of criteria. So it's quite possible this is the least restrictive the priesthood has ever been.
We also have to remember that not everything some Mormons believe has been canonized. I think there is a big difference between canonized doctrine and what is taught that is not canonized.
The comments alone are very enlightening, but still I am anxiously waiting to read your post.
What am AWESOME site! I have added you to LDS Listings. THANKS!
http://ldslistings.blogspot.com
I do not have dark skin, so my comment is not of much use in terms of making a post from the good "brothas and sistas" of the church. I, for one, do not believe that African Americans were unable to hold the priesthood prophets of the church made huge mistakes in scriptural interpretation or anything of that nature, regardless of what any source might suggest. They were guided by God. They spoke to the savior face to face. It was not a mishap.
I am not saying this because I am racist. To me, "race" as we see it in our society is fictitious. It is superficial. Heritage exists, families and cultures have great influence, but skin color is irrelevant. That's my stand, and I do not waver.
I trust the words of the prophets. I don't know the meaning of all things. I am thrilled that all worthy males can hold the preisthood. It saddens me that there was a time they were not able to. It also saddens me that people like Joseph Smith had to die for the work of the Lord to progress, and I do not think the church is any less true for the occurance of that trial of faith either. God has His reasons. Perhaps the Lord was protecting the saints from some consequence unknown to us. Our society was, sadly, unwilling to accept a lot of good things at the time.
God sees us as equal, but we do not. He gives us what we can handle when we can handle it. That is the purpose of continued revelation.
I want to back what Anonymous said at 3:27 pm. I think that for the duration of time that the priesthood was withheld from blacks, that it was inspiration. Perhaps the reasons weren't, but the act was.
And if Brigham Young caved to political pressure, is there any wonder? we're referencing a time in the history of the United States that the very idea of freedom was new. Joseph Smith wasn't just saying that there should be no more slavery, he was putting them on an equal level with everyone else. That was unheard of then, and must have challenged a lot of Mormons' views on race.
The point being, if the Church was nearly crushed by practicing polygamy, why practice another thing that the nation, at the time, would hate? It's self-preservation, right there.
As far as the person who asked how you both can be members of the Church after all this, well I have a question for Anonymous; Why are you a citizen of this country? If you think people shouldn't become Mormon because the LDS Church didn't give the priesthood to African-Americans until 1979, then you should follow you own council and become a citizen of another country, since the USA practiced slavery.
So, honestly, until you leave the country, Anonymous-who-asked-the-question, you have no right to ask why anyone is a member of the Church for what it practiced.
I agree with those who have suggested watching the "Blacks in the Scriptures" DVD. That was extremely helpful to me in understanding the Church's position on this subject, and confirmed my own feelings that God truly does not love any group of His children more than another.
I am a convert to the church, and I am mixed. I read the Book of Mormon, prayed about it, and gained an answer through the Holy Ghost that it is in fact scripture, to be used alongside the Bible. It wasn't until after I was baptized that I found out about the priesthood issues, and I was MAD. I didn't want anyone telling me I was cursed. I already had to deal with the fact that for years it was practically unforgivable for my parents to get married - now I have to deal with curses? No one had satisfying answers for me. I took it back to the Lord.
It came down to this: I know, by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is true, and that Joseph Smith is a prophet. If those things are true, then at some point God would help me to understand the priesthood issues. And He has. I do not regret one moment of the 10 years I have spent as a member of this church, and I feel no shame in it. I wish everyone could come to where I worship and see the American, Haitian, Jamaican, Dominican, Canadian, Polynesian, and Brazilian (to name a few) brothers and sisters working together in love, all unified by a testimony of the gospel and the priesthood that is now available to all. Check it out, my friend.
There is no question that the early church leaders had prejudice feelings towards those of color. It is foolish for any of us to hold a view that the prophets have all the answers for us. That belongs to the Holy Ghost. I suggest googling August 25th, 1883 Salt Lake City to have a good understanding about the lynching which took place.
Shame on you? That is pretty intersting thing to say, especially when one does not look at the facts, and then makes broad accusations.
Lets look at this in a few ways... for simplicity sake let's say racism is an attitude, and that some people have racist attitudes.
The attitudes of many of the early Mormons was that of love and respect towards their fellow man regardless of their race. Joseph Smith and many others of the same faith wanted slavery abolished.
The Church members invited blacks to be baptized and offered them a place in the congregation as members of the mormon faith; meanwhile other Christian denominations set up segregated churches keeping the blacks out. American Baptist and Methodist (to only name two) churches were very segregated with strong racist attitudes among the membership. Blacks were not welcome near the "white churches." There are still many segregated congregations to this day in the US. Are we to denounce the Baptists and Methodists, and question why any black person would want to be a member of those churches? Of course not! Are we to denounce America itself or its school boards, or its government, or hotels, or southern restaurants because of their "old" racist attitudes and beliefs of those that once ran those organizations and businesses?? No, we move on. Maybe none of us should watch the NBA or football because there was a time when no blacks were allowed to participate in these games with their white brothers. Do we call the blacks who play sports in America traitors? How about Obama?; Why would he want to lead a country that was once so opressive to so many of its citizens? What a sell out he must be in your eyes? Of course he's not!
While many "christians" thought that blacks and Indians were less than human, and took advantage of these people in horrible ways, mormons continued to welcome blacks and native Americans into their fold, and taught that all people are children of God, and that any person who took advantage of a brother or sister, black, white, bond or free would suffer consequences for their sinful behavior. It is not doctrine in the LDS Church that blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood alongside their white brothers because Cain killed his brother. Believe it or not, not everything that is said by a church leader is doctrine, and that counts for all church organizations! Also not everything said by members of congregations always accuratley reflects the exact beliefs and doctrines of the church.
A people that are free are much more able to act under their own accountability. As you know it took until the 70's and early 80's for race relations to settle a bit in the US and now finally blacks could begin to feel a little more at home in their own country. God Bless America and God bless people who love one another as he commanded. We do not always know and understand God's ways, as his ways are not our ways. But we do know that God loves us all, and that we are all tested in so many ways. It is probally safe to say that there are people with racist attitudes in almost every organization and one day they will be held accountable for their ignorance. By their fruits ye shall know them, so what ever church one may attend or claim their own, I would look at what fruit the Church as an organization bears, and how it helps its membership to grow closer to Jesus. When it comes to religion to shame someone is so old school and doing it with attitude like they are a "sell-out" is not very considerate. When it comes to religion, let people worship as they may. We do not ridicule others for their beliefs. We do however listen to their beliefs and invite to hear ours.
Thanks,
Tom Spencer
Tom, you seem to be overly simplistic with Mormon attitudes about race. Mark E. Peterson said that black people will be servants in the Celestial Kingdom. Sure, today we say that is not doctrine, but why did he say it in the first place? Again, you are overly simplistic with what is very easy to see at face value.
To the Anonymous post at 3:27pm,
I also believe in what our prophets tell us. However, you have one prophet, President McKay, saying that it was a practice and not doctrine, then you have Elder McKonckie, saying bluntly, "Forget what Brigham Young, George Q. Cannon, and I have said. We spoke with limited understanding."
It does not change any of the great works that these prophets and apostles have done. It does not shake my testimony of them as servants of the Lord. It is simply as Elder McKonckie said, "limited understanding." They are human :)
They are human, yes. Yet we tend to put them up there with deity when it comes to statements made. The fact that you are saying this "does not shake your testimony" means that you don't question statements made. I think it's way more healthy to ask questions instead of giving blind obedience.
Gettting back to the point of this post, it is important to understand our history. No leader sits with Jesus Christ in person and has the opportunity to say, "I'll do whatever you tell me to do". All leaders, like ourselves do what they think is best. The difference is that most members don't look at the little guy in the same way as they look to the brethren.
Backing the prophets is not always blind obedience. One should indeed ask questions, but take them to the LORD, not the internet, not a man with experience. Don't twist statements. Above all, don't rely on the arm of a MAN to give you the answers you want, however desperate you may be to find justification for this painful matter.
I'll start by specifying that I am 1) white, and 2) very young, I'm only 20.
I don't claim to know the workings of the Lord, and I don't claim to know everything about the gospel (I'm not even endowed). However, I do claim to know the Spirit of Christ, and as I read these comments, I noticed that it wasn't there. I don't know why the church did or didn't allow blacks to have the priesthood, but please. But whatever you end up putting in your post, please make sure that as you read it, the Spirit of Christ is there.
I know I'm young and don't know nearly as much as everyone else here does, but it really saddened me that there was no Spirit as I read these comments. I hope your post does have the Spirit. That your answer will be backed by the Lord, and that those who read it will be touched.
You're in my prayers as you decide how to answer this very difficult question.
I, too, have watched "Blacks in the Scriptures," and agree that it is indeed excellent. For anyone with questions like the one in this post, I highly recommend the purchase and repeated watching of this DVD.
As a girl, the question of blacks not being allowed to hold the priesthood bothered me very much.
A wise person once explained it to me this way:
There was a time when black men were beaten for using the wrong changing room in a department store. Imagine what the mobs would have done to blacks, and all mormons as far as that goes, if the black men claimed to hold the power to act for God on earth.
The world was not ready for blacks to hold the priesthood even though many black men were worthy and ready.
God bless you. This is a great blog!
Check out
blacklds.org
For a discussion of the Curse of Cain thing (which was a Protestant invention, by the way), see
http://tinyurl.com/yjsxkhn
Aaahhh, only if life and commentary on life could always be so simple, lol...
We are not to forget the past, but we can learn from it, forgive it, and then move on.
I would suggest that leaders and members of all faiths have said things that have offended someone.
I can openly admit that leaders in my church have made uninspired statements that offended and are flat out incorrect.
I can accept that leaders and others have their own ideas and explanations for "why things are the way they are." I can forgive them when they are wrong and ignorant in their ideas and explanations. Forgiving may be more challenging for some of us to do especially in cases like this, but this is about seeing the big picture. In this case the big picture is much bigger and more important than a century of time, some discourses, some speaches, or ideas. I wish things were more simple, but unfortunately they are not especially when it come to race relations. What I do know is that we all must move on from the past and accept the fact that sometimes those held in high esteem are limited and most certainly do not know or speak all truth.
Tom
I am a card-carrying member of the pasty-white variety and do NOT believe that the preisthood was denied by God to any race or heritage or family of people as annonymous makes the distinction. To believe that, I would have to question everything I know about God.
Guiding principles that help me understand:
First, we are one family in God. We are all assigned to the House of Isreal when we join His church. Heritage is to raise us, all of us, to Christ. Our heritage is a right and "responsiblity" of EVERY member of the church, not a privilage or cast system given to divisions. We must NOT make this point of heritage more than it is by assigning distinctions or notions of importance that take us away from the mark...that is, one family in one purpose, under God.
I DO believe God allowed man to deny the priesthood to blacks, or those persons of color that could be seen as black (many of black heritage look white). NO statement or doctine has every been substantiated to prove God was the author of a policy to prohibit any worth male or female from full participation in the restored gospel blessings. Further, the very notion of race and color is subjective. I, therefore, by reason, can only believe the preisthood restriction was of man.
But more important than reason, I know by the spirit, I know without a doubt. And every
self-respecting black friend knows, without a doubt, that denial of the preisthood was NOT of God. The spirit rests on them, as it does me and tells me it is so.
God holds NO one back, but only man does. This is consistent throughout history.
A prophet is a prophet when he speaks as one. Culture is often a factor when he does not.
We are not cursed for Adam's transgressions. Why would anyone, then, be cursed for their ancestor's transgressions? The curse of Cain is an invention and misunderstanding of man.
Conclusion:
If members keep testifying that this was God's doing, we make taking the gospel forward much harder. And we deny ourselves the fullness of understanding that God is NO respector of persons. He has never denied blessings to any worthy child. NEVER. This principle guides me in my doings...my eyes are more widely open to the possiblities of God's children. It's a beautiful thing to know the truth about how God views his children.
We must stop making convoluted arguments and muddying the pure and beautiful gospel truths in an effort to "explain" that which cannot be explained or defended. It is simple and easy to understand: God loves all and is consistent in this regard. He does NOT make it hard for us to know our brothers and sisters.
I share these thoughts and convictions with the spirit. I am firm in this matter and I won't hold back correcting anyone's false notions, I can't. Brothers and sisters of many colors are hurting because of incorrect notions about race.
I don't know if you can imagine how hurtful the convoluted arguments and speculations are. And how it adds salt to an already deep wound when one suggests an attitude of "the truth is hard to hear". Those convoluted arguments and speculations include, but are not limited to: Old testiment precedents for preisthood assignments, people were not ready, blacks were not ready, God wanted it...etc.
Truth, let's be clear, is hard to hear for the disobedient. I DO bristle and wince, NOT at truth, but at the convoluted arguments that perpetuate false notions which hurt people. That is my attitude. Please understand.
Good people have NO trouble with the truth, it is simple and plain.
Let's make this simple.
Your pasty-white sista in Christ.
I don't want to anonymous- my name is Sam.
I've had a lot of conversations with people on the subject. A few things to address:
Originally, some kind of curse was upon Cain- Brigham Young once said that a person's individual actions make him cursed or not, as is evident with the Lamanites. The "mark" given him was for protection, that if people found him, they would not hurt him- if you read the comments of Moses. Why that mark was a gauge of privileges of the priesthood, I don't know.
Why modern members and priesthood leaders made comments about black members or people in general-
they were probably looking for an explanation to something they didn't understand, and were pretty much clutching for an answer. It may be them trying to explain why the Lord would allow the nations of Africa to have been so mistreated and abused, and why they still have so many problems to overcome. I'm not sure exactly what those leaders thought.
As members in the church, we aren't comfortable with the unknown, especially because of the outpouring of knowledge given by the Prophet Joseph. General Authorities are expected to give some sort of deep insight, and were probably feeling the pressure. The Lord won't tell us everything. My guess is, Brigham Young was probably looking for interpretation in the writings of Abraham, when, in speaking of Pharaoh, it mentions that he was of the lineage where he could not receive the priesthood (which, at the time of Egyptian pharaohs, was a large group).
Of course there are parallels to ancient order of things- Only Israelites were afforded certain rights, and even then, the Levites worked in the temple while other tribes were excluded except for a select few, the firstborn son dedicated to the Lord. It may be part of what certain people's responsibility is in this life. Why the Lord chose to do it all that way- I have no idea, and no one does.
As for the opinions of high ranking leaders in the church, they're just that- opinions and conjecture about a very hazy subject. The Lord obviously knows what he's doing. It may not be that the Lord expressly gave any guidance on the subject until the 1978 declaration- in which he was explicit in his will for his children, whereas before, he allowed us to try to work it out ourselves. After all, he won't always tell us what to do.
I know this- when I see a faithful black member of the church, who, despite ALL the talk of being both LDS (a fairly new group of persecuted people) and black (a group who has endured so much in the recent centuries), I am almost brought to tears of admiration at their faith. Especially for these sistas- I love you, and I admire your faith. It must have been such a trial for so to accept the conditions they were in, but I for one respect and honor them so very deeply. I'm sure that wonderful day in 1978 had a feel, as President Hinckley put it, like the day of Pentecost. How grateful I am for their faith and their examples to me.
Thank you sistas! God bless.
~Sam
What I wanna know is How can you be black and live in the South? The South was such and large supporter of racism and is in some places still is... Oh, wait.... The world changes... people's point of view changes... hearts change.... the Lord Changes people, time, circumstances to meet his needs in building up his kingdom...
I guess I'm wondering... How can you be human... and not accept and appreciate change for the better...? SHAME ON ANONYMOUS! Be brave enough to BE WHO YOU ARE and not stand behind the mask Anonymity
I heard it explained to me this way once - if God "hated" black people, why would he send so many of his beloved spirits to some of the most horrid conditions in Africa, where babies and small children die every day?
We know that those who die before the age of accountability have immediate access into the Celestial Kingdom. They have to have bodies for progression.
I say, pray and fast about it, get an answer from Heavenly Father, and exercise faith. I have found it interesting to read the comments here. Thanks, everyone, for your comments!
I wrote on this topic for my son. It's too long to be a comment, but it seems to shed some light for my LDS friends here. I can't post a link, but it's at Classic Mormon Mom's Corner and it's called "Blacks and the Priesthood" (not as creative as you). You can find it under the topic list on the left - click "blacks".
Yes, the Priesthood was restricted in ancient time, no doubt. But, I still don't know why there was some conflicting things done in the 1800's about those of black African descent. I'm a white, life long LDS, and I can say most members were VERY glad for the June 1978 Revelation.
We know that those who die before the age of accountability have
immediate access into the Celestial Kingdom. They have to have bodies
for progression.
Even Joseph Fielding Smith, who was very unclear about when blacks would have the Priesthood, was very adamant that those who die before the age of accountability would be exalted, no matter what race they were.
Also, there's been other Churches who have done just as bad, if not worse.
Jimmy Carter's Plains Baptist Church would not even let blacks become members there, for example, much less have restrictions on what they could do. That changed when that hit the public eye, after Carter was elected President. I remember that from seeing it on the news at the time.
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